While this is coming from a different direction than the initial two commentaries on film noir, I would strongly suggest that in addition to foreign influences, the American tradition of noir be acknolwedged, developing as a result of the industry structure as it developed in the decades before the 1940s. William Everson has been working on a book called Pre-noir Noir for some time, which will doubtless phrase such an argument far more fully. If you look beyond the canon, especially in the 1930s, not only the style but the narrative patterns of noir are becoming clear. Not to toot my favorites, but one of the strongest examples is THE FLORENTINE DAGGER (WB, 1935) by Robert Florey; although he is later involved in noir in the 1940s (VERDOUX, CROOKED WAY, JOHNNY ONE-EYE, VICIOUS YEARS), like many directors had then already moved largely beyond noir. The pattern is evident in many other B careers of the 1930s that went on to other type of work in the 1940s, of which noir was only one facet. The domain of the B film at the majors (I'm not including poverty row at the moment) in the 1930s provided an avenue where a certain degree of experimentation was tolerated, at times even encouraged in pursuit of novelty, and crime was one of the primary formulas. From my own interviews, filmmakers were aware of European styles, and the avant-garde, particularly from the 1920s, but were primarily concerned with adapting them to their own work, and well on their way in this direction before 1930s France and 1940s Italy would have been seen. Indeed, the 1940s saw the time when the merging of the B as a mainstream form facilitated noir's flowering as a principal type, no longer relegated to the margins of lower budgets. Hence this is more a matter of the industry's evolution, and the movement of various artists and styles into secure positions, together with an infusion of new immigrants--along with changing society, WWII influence, and so forth. I hope you will see this as a variation on the argument you cite as typical, not merely a rephrasing, but my own viewing and research on the 1940s and earlier decades indicates that to understand noir's origins requires going back to previous American eras, not simply simultaneous or 1930s overseas production. Brian Taves Motion Picture Division, Library of Congress Tavesmail.loc.gov Disclaimer: The views expressed are entirely my own.