(Don Quixote is entirely a hero - and is recognised as such at the end of the novel when he hangs up his spurs and everyone tells him that he must continue... But his heroism is of a nature not intended by him, the heroism that he had wanted to achieve always in fact eluding him.) On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 3:29 PM, Frank, Michael <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > i'm delighted that my student's very innocent question has precipitated > such an interesting and multi faceted response > > > > one observation that comes from the very innocence of my student's > original perspective : it may be important to distinguish between > incompetent protagonists [the model being, i suspect, Don Q.] and > incompetent characters who are still authentic heroes [the paradigm for > "hero" would likely be odysseus]; in other words - actually my student's > words - incompetent guys who nevertheless "save the day" . . . [this would, > i think, eliminate for starters almost all the coen brothers examples] > > > > of course we'd need to re-examine what, in the contemporary world, counts > as "saving the day" - a different but not unrelated question > > > > mike > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Film and TV Studies Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > On Behalf Of William Brown > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 7:12 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [SCREEN-L] the incompetent hero > > > > It may well be a genre convention of comedy, but I am suggesting that it is > > not limited to comedy. War and Peace predates cinema and it is not a > > comedy. Schatz is a bit cinema-centric in his thinking if it is he who > > argued this. > > > > On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 6:29 PM, godard <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > > the incompetent (male) hero is a genre convention of comedy, in fact. > > > the ones who initiate the "groundbreaking antihero revolution" (i think > > > it's schatz, but i am recalling from memory here) are laurel & hardy. > > > > > > gloria monti > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 7:09 AM, William Brown <[log in to unmask]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > ----------------------- > > > > Sender: Film and TV Studies Discussion List < > > > > [log in to unmask]> > > > > Poster: William Brown <[log in to unmask]> > > > > Subject: Re: QUERY: the incompetent hero > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > It is interesting that everyone has reached for comedy... I wonder > > > whether > > > > the student has been thinking about non-superhero superheroes - as per > > > > films like Kick-Ass, Special (Specioprin Hydrochloride), and Super... > > > Which > > > > are comedies of sorts, but also not really... > > > > > > > > For what I wonder is whether an incompetent hero might not be much more > > > > regular beyond the specialised lampooning of heroism that most of these > > > > comedies involve... Chaplin, Keaton, Tati, Sellers: each incompetent is > > > in > > > > fact remarkably talented - physically above all. > > > > > > > > So the film that comes to mind for me is, perhaps surprisingly for some > > > > people, Goldfinger. Whereas 21st century Bond can do parkour, > somersaults > > > > and superhuman jumping, in Goldfinger (and many early Bonds in general > - > > > > particularly the Roger Moore films), Bond can do nothing. He's got no > > > idea > > > > what's going on, he keeps fluffing up his invistigations, getting > > > captured > > > > - and he is each time rescued by others and barely manages to get out > of > > > > any of the scapes himself (electrocuting Oddjob perhaps aside). Here we > > > > have a hero who is a bit incompetent, basically - and who never quite > > > works > > > > out what he's supposed to be doing... > > > > > > > > So while incompetent heroes are often comic - the Don Quixote > tradition - > > > > they often are not. And their incompetence can have disastrous > > > consequences > > > > - the tradition for me here would be someone like Pierre Bezukhov in > > > > Tolstoy's War and Peace, who attempts to liberate his serfs but > basically > > > > messes it up and arguably causes more harm than good... > > > > > > > > Anyone else think of any incompetent heroes that are not necessarily > > > comic, > > > > then? > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > gloria monti, ph.d. > > > assistant professor > > > radio-TV-film > > > CSUF, fullerton, CA > > > [log in to unmask] > > > _____________________________ > > > > > > ---- > > > Learn to speak like a film/TV professor! Listen to the ScreenLex > > > podcast: > > > http://www.screenlex.org > > > > > > > ---- > > Screen-L is sponsored by the Telecommunication & Film Dept., the > > University of Alabama: http://www.tcf.ua.edu > > ---- > Screen-L is sponsored by the Telecommunication & Film Dept., the > University of Alabama: http://www.tcf.ua.edu > ---- Online resources for film/TV studies may be found at ScreenSite http://www.ScreenSite.org