i'm delighted that my student's very innocent question has precipitated such an interesting and multi faceted response one observation that comes from the very innocence of my student's original perspective : it may be important to distinguish between incompetent protagonists [the model being, i suspect, Don Q.] and incompetent characters who are still authentic heroes [the paradigm for "hero" would likely be odysseus]; in other words - actually my student's words - incompetent guys who nevertheless "save the day" . . . [this would, i think, eliminate for starters almost all the coen brothers examples] of course we'd need to re-examine what, in the contemporary world, counts as "saving the day" - a different but not unrelated question mike -----Original Message----- From: Film and TV Studies Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of William Brown Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 7:12 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [SCREEN-L] the incompetent hero It may well be a genre convention of comedy, but I am suggesting that it is not limited to comedy. War and Peace predates cinema and it is not a comedy. Schatz is a bit cinema-centric in his thinking if it is he who argued this. On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 6:29 PM, godard <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > the incompetent (male) hero is a genre convention of comedy, in fact. > the ones who initiate the "groundbreaking antihero revolution" (i think > it's schatz, but i am recalling from memory here) are laurel & hardy. > > gloria monti > > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 7:09 AM, William Brown <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: Film and TV Studies Discussion List < > > [log in to unmask]> > > Poster: William Brown <[log in to unmask]> > > Subject: Re: QUERY: the incompetent hero > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > It is interesting that everyone has reached for comedy... I wonder > whether > > the student has been thinking about non-superhero superheroes - as per > > films like Kick-Ass, Special (Specioprin Hydrochloride), and Super... > Which > > are comedies of sorts, but also not really... > > > > For what I wonder is whether an incompetent hero might not be much more > > regular beyond the specialised lampooning of heroism that most of these > > comedies involve... Chaplin, Keaton, Tati, Sellers: each incompetent is > in > > fact remarkably talented - physically above all. > > > > So the film that comes to mind for me is, perhaps surprisingly for some > > people, Goldfinger. Whereas 21st century Bond can do parkour, somersaults > > and superhuman jumping, in Goldfinger (and many early Bonds in general - > > particularly the Roger Moore films), Bond can do nothing. He's got no > idea > > what's going on, he keeps fluffing up his invistigations, getting > captured > > - and he is each time rescued by others and barely manages to get out of > > any of the scapes himself (electrocuting Oddjob perhaps aside). Here we > > have a hero who is a bit incompetent, basically - and who never quite > works > > out what he's supposed to be doing... > > > > So while incompetent heroes are often comic - the Don Quixote tradition - > > they often are not. And their incompetence can have disastrous > consequences > > - the tradition for me here would be someone like Pierre Bezukhov in > > Tolstoy's War and Peace, who attempts to liberate his serfs but basically > > messes it up and arguably causes more harm than good... > > > > Anyone else think of any incompetent heroes that are not necessarily > comic, > > then? > > > > > -- > gloria monti, ph.d. > assistant professor > radio-TV-film > CSUF, fullerton, CA > [log in to unmask] > _____________________________ > > ---- > Learn to speak like a film/TV professor! Listen to the ScreenLex > podcast: > http://www.screenlex.org > ---- Screen-L is sponsored by the Telecommunication & Film Dept., the University of Alabama: http://www.tcf.ua.edu ---- Screen-L is sponsored by the Telecommunication & Film Dept., the University of Alabama: http://www.tcf.ua.edu