most screen-L'ers tend, i think, to use the list for helpful info . . . a few of us, though, remain incorrigibly attracted to issues which the list can help us think about -- think about out loud as it were . . . vinzenz hediger's recent comments on oliver stone provide an occasion for such thinking, so here's a question for those incorrigible few: speaking of stone's films, vinzenz says: As for cinematic and narrative style: Don't be fooled by the montage. These are very conventional films. now i have no brief for stone, whose films i don't know well . . . but i find the idea that a film can BE conventional, despite "apparently" unconventional montage, very striking . . . to the extent that montage is an essential part of the medium of cinema, and to the extent that the way the medium us used can't help but inflect the message in crucial ways, does it make sense to say that a film is conventional despite it's radical use of montage?? of course one could argue that stone's films all reveal a conventional mind, or have a conventional narrative structure, or betray a very conventional politics . . . but that is not the same as saying that they are conventional films . . . on some levels POTEMKIN is an utterly conventional expression of conventional revolutionary agit-prop ideas, but i suspect that no one would want to call it a conventional film on that score so, cutting to the chase: 1. can a film be "conventional" despite its unconventional use of the medium? 2 if so, what are the DETERMINING characteristics in a film, those decisive enough to lead one to call it "truly" unconventional or revolutionary or radical or whatever other term of praise one wants to use? mike. ---- Screen-L is sponsored by the Telecommunication & Film Dept., the University of Alabama: http://www.tcf.ua.edu