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SCREEN-L  January 1996, Week 3

SCREEN-L January 1996, Week 3

Subject:

Defining Film Noir (LONG POST)

From:

Donald Larsson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Film and TV Studies Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 17 Jan 1996 16:16:36 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (186 lines)

Responding to Evan Cameron's response to my notes on film noir (with some
editing)--
 
>Don Larsson:
 
>I appreciate the game you're playing with the term 'film noir', and much
>that you say.  Permit me one last time to clarify what we now know about
>the scope and limits of defining terms (coincident with much that you
>say), and hence to reaffirm the unique achievement (to date) of Damico's
>specification.
 
I hope I haven't seemed too glib in my posts.  I wasn't intentionally
playing "a game" except to the extent that all such matters of definition
are rather gamelike (which I take to be Wittgenstein's point, cited below):
 
>Strictly speaking, a definition of term must give both the necessary and
>sufficient conditions of its application.  As we now know, however, from
>the work of Quine and Wittgenstein in particular, no useful listing of
>necessary conditions can be given for any empirical predicate (i.e.,
>things found in the world have no essences; as Wittgenstein put, any two
>things falling under an empirical term must bear a 'family resemblance' to
>one another, but that does not entail that all things falling under it
>have anything in common).
 
<It follows, therefore, that no definitions of empirically useful terms can
<be given, for no exhaustive listing of necessary conditions is possible.
<We are left then with the task of specifying SUFFICIENT conditions for
<their use as means toward whatever ends we can clearly foresee, and that
<implies that the conditions be TESTABLE as means to those ends.
 
One question we might ask, then, is what use our definitions will be put to.
My notion is that if we need to define "film noir" as people who talk about
film, then we are trying to identify what it is we are talking about.  (If
we can't identify it, then--to paraphrase Wittgenstein--we must, perforce,
be silent.)
 
<Damico, however unintentionally, got it right: his specification is
<listing of conditions which he believes to be SUFFICIENT to ensure the
<construction of a movie which would be 'film noir'; it is not, and is not
<meant to be, what can never be given, namely a listing of necessary
<conditions for a movie being 'film noir'.
 
Then, it seems, his definition is meant to serve *filmmakers* and not film
critics or historians?  What use does it have for the latter?
 
>He has no interested therefore (and quite properly so) in ensuring that
>every movie which is 'film noir' conforms to his specification.  Rather,
>he is concerned with exactly the opposite, namely to ensure that every
>movie which conforms to his specifications is 'film noir'!  If he has
>managed to achieve that end, then he has provided something valuable,
>namely a tool for use by filmmakers who wish to construct films which are
>'film noir'.
 
This, it seems, is precisely the point of our difference.  D'Amico, if I
take your remarks correctly, is being *prescriptive* (but not to the point
of eliminating other possible formulae).  In other words, by your
interpretation, he is telling writers and directors "how to" make a
"film noir."  As such--and as I tried to suggest before--it's not a bad
formula.  Certainly, Kasden seemed to follow something like it in making
BODY HEAT.
 
But what *was* film noir in the first place?  It did not exist until the
French gave it a name.  As critics from Schrader on have said, no one set
out to make a "film noir."  They were making films in various genres that
had certain themes, styles, narrative patterns and characters that often
seemed to have something in common.  It was that commonality that attracted
the first French critics and others that came later.  For the last two
decades, though, people *have* set out to make "films noirs," which means
that they have set out to make films that they think have something in
common with at least some of those films that people have called "film
noir."
 
 
>It is therefore no counterexample to Damico's work to list movies which
>you or anyone else agree to be 'film noir' which do not conform to his
>specification. . . .
 
Since his definition is descriptive only of particular features of particular
films, counterexamples would by necessity be pointless.  It would be like
complaining that the tangerine in question is does not have white flesh and
smooth skin.  But that would apply only if one were to say that "If you wish
to know that your trees are producing fruit, you should see if the objects
hanging from the branches have white flesh and smooth skins that are
usually red but may be green or yellow."
 
The other problem with D'Amico's formula is that it is defined only in terms
of a certain *narrative* construction and says nothing about *style* (which
Gene Stavis' post did address).  If one made a film according to D'Amico's
formula but filmed it entirely in high-key lighting with straight-on
camera angles, would it still be "film noir"?  It is interesting to look
at contemporary reviews of some of the films we now call noir.  American
critics on the whole tended to ignore matters of style entirely.  The
British (in SIGHT AND SOUND especially) were somewhat more sensitive to
the apparently unusual stylistics of these films.  (Pinning down those
stylistic aspects, though, can be just as tricky as finding an essential
core of narrative elements.)
 
 
>. . . It is precisely because Damico's specification was intended to encompass
>SUFFICIENT conditions that it is testable, and hence useful.
 
But, again, useful to whom?  If you mean useful to budding writers and
directors looking for a model to work with, then maybe.  But if we're
using that definition as a  way to define what it is we're going to
talk about, then we've placed some very artificial limits on ourselves.
 
Let's take the *slightly* less tricky question of genre.  Westerns can be
filmed in many different styles and have many different patterns of
thematic and narrative organization.  What they have in common is that they
are set in a (large) geographical area and in a (broad) period of American
history.  Now, one can isolate certain narrative and thematic elements
as "essential" components of the Western and extrapolate them into
science fiction films (OUTLAND), contemporary crime films (DIRTY HARRY)
and the like--but that does not make those film "Westerns" as such.  Moving
back to the Western and then defining it in terms such as "The hero, who
is torn between the duty to society demanded by his job and his personal
distaste for that society, must risk his life in answering a threat to
that society from a criminal" (or something like that) addresses very
well HIGH NOON, THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE and many other films.
But it says nothing about a huge number of films that virtually everyone
would agree are "Westerns."
 
 
>The problem
>with a listing such as your own, which encompass a set of features often
>found in movies we agree to be 'film noir', but which are also found in
>many movies which by common consent are not 'film noir' is that the
>listing is untestable.
 
I don't think the individual elements I proposed (which were not meant to
be an exhaustive list) are untestable.  I certainly agree that any individual
element may be found within any number of other films.  The key problem
in the set of elements I proposed is when does a certain combination of
those elements constitute a "critical mass" that causes us to identify it
as "film noir" (or identify individual scenes within a film as "noir-like")?
That, I admit, is a pretty subjective judgment, though I expect that most
of us would find at least some common core of examples that have that
"critical mass."  But we face similar problems when we try to isolate
"meanings" implied by a film.
 
 
 
>. . . To my knowledge, no film
>conforming to his specifications(!) has failed to be 'film noir'.  His
>proposal therefore remains, for me, a USEFUL contribution to the theory of
>genre design for filmmakers, and, sad to say, almost uniquely so.
 
I'm still unconvinced by D'Amico's silence on style and his definition
seems to me to be another kind of tautology.
Isn't it like saying that no fruit that has white flesh, a smooth skin
and is red, green or yellow in color has failed to be an apple?  From your
comments, D'Amico seems to be saying, "Here is how to make sure that what
you are growing is an apple."  I'm trying to say "Here's what is in this
bowl of fruit."
 
But here's another question about use: Why would even a *filmmaker* want
such a formula in the first place?  Even if we ammend or reverse the
genders, as you propose, we are left with a narrative formula that
already is seeming pretty tired.  What made the idea of "film noir"
so interesting in the first place was that it seemed to be something
different from the mainstream, whether in terms of style, the quasi-
existentialism of the characters and narrative, or the "subversion" of
gender expectations that critics of various stripes have cited at one
time or another.
 
Now I would agree that those claims of the difference of film noir have
been exaggerated but there is still *some* kind of difference from the
mainstream of films that preceded or accompanied it in the late 1940s
and 1950s.  To reduce it to a narrative formula for filmmakers to look
to seems (to me at least) to guarantee precisely a "formula" film.
A formula film may be done well or done badly, but what's the point?
 
 
>Again, thanks for initiating this discussion, and thereafter contributing
>to it, in the open and credible manner the subject deserves.
 
Thanks to you too for taking the time to explain your position so coherently.
I hope the discussion continues and that we haven't clogged up too many
mailboxes with it!
 
 
Don Larsson, Mankato State U (MN)
 
----
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March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
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July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
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July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
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May 1999, Week 5
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May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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July 1998, Week 3
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July 1998, Week 1
June 1998, Week 5
June 1998, Week 4
June 1998, Week 3
June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
May 1998, Week 4
May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
March 1998, Week 2
March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 4
November 1997, Week 3
November 1997, Week 2
November 1997, Week 1
October 1997, Week 5
October 1997, Week 4
October 1997, Week 3
October 1997, Week 2
October 1997, Week 1
September 1997, Week 5
September 1997, Week 4
September 1997, Week 3
September 1997, Week 2
September 1997, Week 1
August 1997, Week 5
August 1997, Week 4
August 1997, Week 3
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August 1997, Week 1
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July 1997, Week 3
July 1997, Week 2
July 1997, Week 1
June 1997, Week 5
June 1997, Week 4
June 1997, Week 3
June 1997, Week 2
June 1997, Week 1
May 1997, Week 5
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May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
April 1997, Week 4
April 1997, Week 3
April 1997, Week 2
April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 4
March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
February 1997, Week 4
February 1997, Week 3
February 1997, Week 2
February 1997, Week 1
January 1997, Week 5
January 1997, Week 4
January 1997, Week 3
January 1997, Week 2
January 1997, Week 1
December 1996, Week 5
December 1996, Week 4
December 1996, Week 3
December 1996, Week 2
December 1996, Week 1
November 1996, Week 4
November 1996, Week 3
November 1996, Week 2
November 1996, Week 1
October 1996, Week 5
October 1996, Week 4
October 1996, Week 3
October 1996, Week 2
October 1996, Week 1
September 1996, Week 5
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September 1996, Week 1
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August 1996, Week 3
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June 1996, Week 5
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June 1996, Week 3
June 1996, Week 2
June 1996, Week 1
May 1996, Week 5
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May 1996, Week 2
May 1996, Week 1
April 1996, Week 5
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April 1996, Week 3
April 1996, Week 2
April 1996, Week 1
March 1996, Week 5
March 1996, Week 4
March 1996, Week 3
March 1996, Week 2
March 1996, Week 1
February 1996, Week 5
February 1996, Week 4
February 1996, Week 3
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February 1996, Week 1
January 1996, Week 5
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January 1996, Week 1
December 1995, Week 5
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November 1995, Week 3
November 1995, Week 2
November 1995, Week 1
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October 1995, Week 4
October 1995, Week 3
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October 1995, Week 1
September 1995, Week 5
September 1995, Week 4
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April 1995, Week 3
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