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SCREEN-L  November 2004, Week 2

SCREEN-L November 2004, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Do we have to talk to each other this way?

From:

Paul Ward <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Film and TV Studies Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:48:40 -0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (250 lines)

I have to say that I agree with Ken here. Certainly, there are plenty of writers out there who could clarify what they mean with no real loss of sophistication in their argument. (That they choose not to perhaps points to an uncertainty on their part as to the strength of their argument?) But there are those whose work would be reduced, nuances would be lost etc. I think his idea for a glossary is a good one, and something that would develop and diversify as new terms (or new uses of 'old' terms) are gathered. Think of all the different ways in which a term such as 'ideology' is used . . . . rather than throwing one's hands up in despair at this (or simply thinking that an author is engaging in deliberate wordplay for the sake of it), get the students to engage with the richness and nuance of these terms. (On that note, one of the best books to get hold of is Raymond Williams' 'Keywords'). As Ken implies, one way to learn what the hell these 'difficult' terms mean is to grab hold of them, look into their history and development, while not for one moment diminishing their different nuances and complexities (which is precisely what Williams does in his book). Also, going back to Mike's initial point, I think it is important that we always clarify in what way we are using a specific term - when I say 'immanence' do I mean the same as when you say it, etc . . .

Paul

Paul Ward
Film and TV
Brunel University

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Film and TV Studies Discussion List on behalf of kenneth harrow
        Sent: Tue 09/11/2004 1:46 PM
        To: [log in to unmask]
        Cc:
        Subject: Re: [SCREEN-L] Do we have to talk to each other this way?



        here is a suggestion for mike. instead of dropping theory from your course,
        create a glossary of terms appropriate to the readings you assign. it is
        incomprehensible to me that difficult concepts, grounded in a tradition of
        philosophical thought, anthropology, political thought, and so on, are
        necessarily inaccessible to students because of its so-called jargon. this
        is a cop-out for those unwilling to make the effort to teach difficult
        theory. i would add that any glossary you create could easily be extended
        by google searches where there are wonderful sites available for any term
        you can dream up.
        i looked at the passages cited below as too difficult, and can't quite
        understand why a student who makes an effort can't stretch himself or
        herself and use words like immanence or transcendence. you could be selling
        the students short by assuming they won't work on these terms or concepts
        and ultimately be able to understand them
        lastly, it is this "jargonistic echolalie" that has produced some of the
        most exciting work on culture in the last 30 years, which has attracted
        wonderful scholars and entire schools of thought into cinema studies....
        ken harrow

        At 11:59 PM 11/8/2004, you wrote:
        >Bravo, Mike!
        >
        >You have eloquently hit the nail on the head.
        >
        >The descent into jargonistic echolalia began thirty years ago. It may
        >take another generation to restore reasoned discourse. That is likely
        >too long to save us.
        >
        >If the know-nothings still know nothing the educators bare at least
        >some responsibility.
        >
        >What you outline here is worth a book -- and it's own listserv.
        >
        >Thank you for taking the time to describe this desperate situation.
        >
        >(As for feminism, start at the beginning with Molly Haskell's "From
        >Reverence to Rape."  Haskell was sane then and has -- somehow --
        >managed to retain her good sense.)
        >
        >James Monaco\
        >Card-carrying member of the east coast elite
        >
        >
        >On Nov 8, 2004, at 11:46 AM, [log in to unmask] wrote:
        >
        >>Do we have to talk to each other this way?
        >>
        >>Do we have to talk to each other this way?
        >>
        >>This message is a follow up on one I sent last week in which I asked
        >>for
        >>bibliographical suggestions that could help introduce feminist film
        >>criticism and theory to bright but totally uninitiated young
        >>undergraduate
        >>students.  As has happened in the past when I asked similar questions
        >>there were very  few responses, and of those few most were patently
        >>unsuitable [such as asking them to read Camera Obscura].
        >>
        >>One of the better suggestions was to use the volume on Feminist Film
        >>Studies by Janet McCabe in the Wallflower Press series of introductory
        >>texts, and
        >>it's true that this volume at least tries to accommodate readers with
        >>no
        >>previous experience of film theory.  But I have to emphasize "tries"
        >>because, at least from my point of view, it is only partially
        >>successful
        >>in this effort.  Here, for example, are some phrases chosen from just
        >>the
        >>first two pages of Janet McCabe's introduction, that part of the book
        >>that, presumably, should work hardest at inviting in the uninitiated:
        >>"new
        >>knowledges concerned with deconstructing representation";
        >>"de Beauvoir genderises transcendence and immanence"; "self-confirming
        >>parameters that institute gender hierarchies."  It's not at all clear
        >>to
        >>me how I can expect my students to make any sense at all of these
        >>locutions.  These pages also seem to take for granted that the reader
        >>will
        >>have some familiarity with such concepts as post-structuralism,
        >>post-colonialism, queer theory, transnationalism, to say nothing of
        >>ideology.  My students, usually eager to learn, struggle with these
        >>terms
        >>and concepts,  but sooner or later they give up, for without lots of
        >>help
        >>this stuff ultimately becomes impenetrable to them.
        >>
        >>This raises three questions for me, and it is these questions that I
        >>want
        >>to share with the list.  First and most immediate, is there anything at
        >>all out there that will ease my students into this stuff?  Perhaps in a
        >>course introducing feminist theory, or even film theory, I could devote
        >>lots of class time to talking about this.  But my courses are usually
        >>much
        >>more broadly based and I can barely find the time to explore such
        >>things
        >>as the studio system, continuity editing, and auteur politics.  Film
        >>theory, not just feminist theory but theory in general, has to get
        >>whatever little time is left over after working on more fundamental
        >>matters.  So when some students, picking up on the little we can do in
        >>class, want to go further in this direction, where can I send them?
        >>[To avoid misunderstanding let me be more explicit about the audience I
        >>have in mind.  Imagine that you're trying to explain your work to
        >>someone
        >>whom you like and whose intelligence you respect, but who has
        >>absolutely
        >>no experience of the kind of discourse we take for granted ? including
        >>such things as using the term "discourse" to talk about what I'm
        >>talking
        >>about now.  Think of a teen age cousin,  or your significant other
        >>whose
        >>moves in entirely in non-academic circles, or your jogging partner,  or
        >>your grandfather.  Think of someone who has probably heard the term
        >>"patriarchy" but isn't sure what it means; someone for whom
        >>"intervention"
        >>is anything but a discursive act; someone who perhaps, on hearing the
        >>word
        >>"argument," immediately thinks of an angry dispute and not of a
        >>reasoned
        >>exposition of an idea.  This is the audience I mean to address.]
        >>
        >>Second, if?as I suspect?there is little out there that systematically
        >>introduces these terms, premises, concepts, and arguments, then it
        >>would
        >>seem most students and scholars in the field [and I suspect this may
        >>well
        >>mean you] learned this stuff the way I had to, more or less piecemeal,
        >>on the fly,
        >>improvising as we went along, hoping to get it right but often unsure.
        >>The
        >>result is?and here let me speak only for myself?that while I can talk
        >>the
        >>talk I sometimes find that I can't really walk the walk.  I can
        >>certainly
        >>sound as if I know what I'm talking about,  but while I usually have a
        >>pretty good idea of what's going on in any theoretical discussion, too
        >>often I find that my understanding is not as solid, not as
        >>comprehensive,
        >>not as clear as I want it to be?and, not coincidentally, not as clear
        >>as I
        >>expect my students' understanding to be when they write papers for me.
        >>[And this may well account for a peculiar and ironic pattern I've
        >>repeatedly discovered in young scholars over the years:  as a member
        >>of my
        >>department's hiring committee, I often get to interview job candidates
        >>with sterling credentials, candidates who?judging from their CVs?seem
        >>to
        >>have a far more acute understanding of the issues that concern me than
        >>I
        >>do.  Reading the applications I find myself thinking, "wow!!! -- we
        >>must
        >>have this person here."  But then in the interview, when I begin to
        >>explore the issues and raise problems that I myself face in the hope
        >>that
        >>the candidate will be able to address them, I too often find that the
        >>candidate understands less than I do, and  has merely mastered the
        >>sleight
        >>of language that counts as a sign of one's being an initiate.  ]
        >>
        >>I wonder to what extent this kind of discourse is necessary, and to
        >>what
        >>extent we [and here I certainly include myself among the guilty] use it
        >>largely as a way of affirming our belonging to a specific scholarly
        >>culture and?more perniciously?as a way of excluding those who can't
        >>talk
        >>the talk.  I of course know that some jargon, some terms of art, are
        >>not
        >>only inevitable but necessary.  That's not the problem.  The
        >>problem?actually a set of interrelated problems?is that no one seems
        >>prepared to introduce this discourse from the ground up; that those who
        >>use the discourse may have learned it in the most haphazard way; that
        >>at
        >>least some of these people have a less reliable understanding of this
        >>discourse than they should.
        >>
        >>There's one other aspect to this set of problems that seems to me
        >>especially compelling and troubling in the wake of last week's US
        >>elections.  One midwestern voter was quoted in the NYTimes as saying,
        >>in essence "We don't need no east coast elite telling us
        >>what's good for us and who to vote for."  While it's not likely that
        >>the
        >>discourse of film theory is the cause of this voter's distrust of an
        >>"intellectual elite,"  the remark?like the election results?has a wider
        >>resonance.  For it suggests that, despite the importance of
        >>contemporary
        >>marxist thought in the university, we still have not figured out a way
        >>to
        >>make our most challenging and important work actually seem important to
        >>those whose lives and destinies we are programmatically engaged with.
        >>
        >>This is obviously a big, messy problem, and I don't suppose this is the
        >>place to explore it in detail.  But it did seem to me to be worth
        >>flagging, and I'd be most eager to hear how others on the list feel
        >>about
        >>it.
        >>
        >>And, by the way, if anyone can tell me how to explain "new knowledges
        >>concerned with deconstructing representation" to my students, I'd be
        >>most
        >>grateful.
        >>
        >>Best
        >>
        >>Mike
        >>
        >>--
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>----
        >>To sign off Screen-L, e-mail [log in to unmask] and put SIGNOFF
        >>Screen-L
        >>in the message.  Problems?  Contact [log in to unmask]
        >
        >----
        >To sign off Screen-L, e-mail [log in to unmask] and put SIGNOFF Screen-L
        >in the message.  Problems?  Contact [log in to unmask]

        Kenneth W. Harrow
        Professor of English
        Michigan State University
        [log in to unmask]
        517 353-7243
        fax 353 3755

        ----
        Screen-L is sponsored by the Telecommunication & Film Dept., the
        University of Alabama: http://www.tcf.ua.edu


----
Screen-L is sponsored by the Telecommunication & Film Dept., the
University of Alabama: http://www.tcf.ua.edu

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July 2010, Week 2
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June 2010, Week 4
June 2010, Week 3
June 2010, Week 2
June 2010, Week 1
May 2010, Week 5
May 2010, Week 4
May 2010, Week 3
May 2010, Week 2
May 2010, Week 1
April 2010, Week 5
April 2010, Week 2
April 2010, Week 1
March 2010, Week 4
March 2010, Week 3
March 2010, Week 2
March 2010, Week 1
February 2010, Week 4
February 2010, Week 3
February 2010, Week 2
February 2010, Week 1
January 2010, Week 5
January 2010, Week 4
January 2010, Week 3
January 2010, Week 2
January 2010, Week 1
December 2009, Week 5
December 2009, Week 3
December 2009, Week 2
December 2009, Week 1
November 2009, Week 5
November 2009, Week 4
November 2009, Week 3
November 2009, Week 2
November 2009, Week 1
October 2009, Week 5
October 2009, Week 4
October 2009, Week 3
October 2009, Week 2
October 2009, Week 1
September 2009, Week 5
September 2009, Week 4
September 2009, Week 3
September 2009, Week 2
September 2009, Week 1
August 2009, Week 4
August 2009, Week 3
August 2009, Week 2
August 2009, Week 1
July 2009, Week 5
July 2009, Week 4
July 2009, Week 3
July 2009, Week 2
July 2009, Week 1
June 2009, Week 5
June 2009, Week 4
June 2009, Week 3
June 2009, Week 2
June 2009, Week 1
May 2009, Week 4
May 2009, Week 3
May 2009, Week 2
May 2009, Week 1
April 2009, Week 4
April 2009, Week 3
April 2009, Week 2
April 2009, Week 1
March 2009, Week 5
March 2009, Week 4
March 2009, Week 3
March 2009, Week 2
March 2009, Week 1
February 2009, Week 4
February 2009, Week 3
February 2009, Week 2
February 2009, Week 1
January 2009, Week 5
January 2009, Week 4
January 2009, Week 3
January 2009, Week 2
January 2009, Week 1
December 2008, Week 5
December 2008, Week 4
December 2008, Week 3
December 2008, Week 2
December 2008, Week 1
November 2008, Week 5
November 2008, Week 4
November 2008, Week 3
November 2008, Week 2
November 2008, Week 1
October 2008, Week 5
October 2008, Week 4
October 2008, Week 3
October 2008, Week 2
October 2008, Week 1
September 2008, Week 5
September 2008, Week 4
September 2008, Week 3
September 2008, Week 2
September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
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August 2002, Week 3
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August 2002, Week 1
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July 2002, Week 1
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June 2002, Week 1
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May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
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September 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
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November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
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October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
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September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
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August 2000, Week 3
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June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
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May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
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April 1998, Week 3
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March 1998, Week 3
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