as a great [but not uncritical] admirer of bordwell, i agree with don larsson that bordwell's four types of meaning are insightful, important, a useful analytic tool for helping us to think about movies, and i'm grateful to don for pointing out this useful perspective . . . but--unlike say pierce's discrimination of symbol, index, and icon--there is really no way of knowing on the face of it which meaning is operating at any given time . . . so it finally cannot answer the question raised by the image of sarandon's comforting of penn in DMW . . . it simply reconfigured the question into one which might be formulated thus: which of bordwell's meanings is operating in that image? the terms of inquiry change . . . the problem remains intact . . . . . . plus ca change mike frank ---- To signoff SCREEN-L, e-mail [log in to unmask] and put SIGNOFF SCREEN-L in the message. Problems? Contact [log in to unmask]